Dr. Pipes speaks at UCI -- MSU disrupts speech by walking out en masse

Dr. Daniel Pipes spoke tonight at UCI.  His topic: Islamic extremism. 

First, what didn’t happen, unlike earlier this year, members of the Muslim Student Union didn’t try to shout him down. 

What did happen was a Muslim Student Union-led walkout en masse, so, it was a disruption of a different kind as the MSU members did violence to Dr. Pipe’s free speech rights using a kinder, gentler tactic.  (Memo to the MSU: you can protest outside and hand out all the flyers you want.  But pause to reflect on how your actions and fear of violence caused seven hired police officers to be present – vs. no police hired to protect MSU events on campus – how does that look?  Also, big hint here: stand up for the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America.  If you are not a citizen, you clearly should not pledge allegiance – but for goodness sake, out of politeness, respect and protocol, STAND, if you can.  I stand at a respectful position of attention when other nations pay respect to their flag.  When in America, you should do the same.  Not to do so looks bad, very bad.)

As the MSU walkout emptied about half of the room, Dr. Pipes continued his remarks.  Then the lighting system when dim several times, at one point almost plunging the room into darkness.  Dr. Pipes just smiled gently from the podium. 

As for the content of Dr. Pipes’ speech, it was all rather academic and reasonable.  There was nothing he said that was extreme or at variance with what I learned while a Strategic Studies major at Claremont McKenna College with two years of Arabic and a semester overseas studying Islamic political thought in Cairo Egypt.  Ironically, had the members of the MSU and their supporters stayed to listen, they would have heard Dr. Pipes say that going into Iraq and staying was a mistake and that we should not take responsibility for running Iraq and caring for Iraqis.  Same with Iran.  Toppling Iran or preventing their acquisition of nuclear weapons yes.  Occupation, no.   In this, Dr. Pipes draws a closer analogy to the defeat of Soviet communism during the Cold War in 1991, rather than the defeat and total occupation of the Axis powers in1945 – two examples he brought up three or four times in the course of lecture. 

Dr. Pipes’ main thesis was that America needs a coherent strategy to deal with Islamic extremism of the type that took its political cues from Italy and Germany circa the 1920s and 30s and first developed indigenously in India and Egypt.  In this, I am in full agreement with Dr. Pipes, both as to the origin of modern Islamic totalitarianism as an ideology that aspires to global conquest, as well as in the need for a comprehensive strategy.  As Dr. Pipes said: this is not a war against terrorism, terrorism is a method.  This is a war against Islamic extremism.  To win this war Dr. Pipes said that we will need the assistance of moderate Muslims who seek to modernize their faith.  He was confident that this was doable, if very difficult.

As if to underscore this point, the last question of the evening was asked by a young woman wearing a traditional headscarf.  She asked Dr. Pipes what happens if Muslims don’t want to modernize?  If they decide they want to remain “traditionalists” and won’t give in.  Dr. Pipes tried to clarify the question, but in the end said that the war must then go on until Islamic extremists do decide to modernize and give up attacking the West.  “And if they don’t give up,” she persisted.  “Then we continue,” Pipes replied, adding that Muslims such as herself in America have more to fear in losing their lives to extremist Muslims than they do from any generalized fear of an American response that may put their community under greater scrutiny.  The young woman protested that Dr. Pipes was apparently stating that all terrorists were Muslims.  Pipes responded to the effect that most terrorists were Muslim extremists and to pretend otherwise is foolish.  He then cited the recent cases of a Bosnian Muslim yelling “Allah akbar” who opened fire in a mall in Utah, killing five and wounding four, and of the gunman who, yelling “Allah akbar” in a Jewish community center in Seattle last year, killed one and wounded five. 

I’m glad I attended the event.  Perhaps next time, the Muslim Student Union members and their supporters will figure out that they can have their free speech without infringing on the free speech rights of others.  Oh, and remember, don’t remain defiantly seated next time during the Pledge of Allegiance – it really ticks most Americans off – a lot.   If you are a guest in our nation, act like it – otherwise, don’t de too shocked when some Americans don’t particularly want you around. 

All the best,

Chuck DeVore
California State Assemblyman, 70th District
www.ChuckDeVore.com

Comments

[Army of One]

Assemblyman, you are finally doing something useful with your time. I am glad to see you finally let everyone know your nuke initiative was a scam and that you had no intention of following through with process. I hope your work on exposing the MSU at UCI is a little bit more genuine and not just another PR scam.

[The Mechanical Eye]

I was there as well -- Pipes gave a rather moderate speech before showing his more interventionist colors during the Q and A. The MSU's antics were a fairly innocuous example of civil disobedience (remember, its the cops who are carrying the batons and guns, not the MSU types, as admittedly cultish as the student club may seem).

My issue with the GOP and the Pledge of Allegiance is the same as that with the Republican tendency to put flag-pin lapels on their suits -- its a rather unsubtle form of loyalty-oath bullying, as if to say "I want you to SHOW us all you are an American." You figuratively wrap yourself around the flag, claiming your positions to be the only patriotic, all-American stance allowed. This naturally antagonizes a group of people who already feel alienated from the white-bread world of Irvine, California, and emphasizes the bridge between you and them, Assemblyman DeVore.

I'm an American and proud of it because of the principles of the Constitution. Making a show of re-iterating this in the form of the Pledge in a public way before a university lecture seems insecure for a party that views itself as a collection of All-Americans.

Having said that, you are rather active in the blog world and this is to be commended. You're the rare public official who is rather active in the medium, and this should be encouraged.

DU

[Pipes got owned]

You are a funny guy, buddy. A few points:
1) Where is the part about you getting butt hurt when the SPJ speaker got you so angry you began to yell and stormed away?

2) MSU has never used violence, MSU was violent to his freedom of speech? Where is the logic in that statement.

3) Seems like you had a bad night, so I suggest you put on your favorite Ronald Regan PJ's, get a warm glass of milk and cookies, put on your favorite episode of O'reilly than go to bed and sleep it off. You will still wake up wrong, and the fact that you acted like a 12 year old tonight will still be true.

Grow up friend

[Chuck DeVore]

To: Pipes got owned

It is doing "violence to his freedom of speech" when a mass walkout disrupts that speech. It is violence in the meaning of the Unabridged Dictionary (see: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/violence, as in 6. damage through distortion or unwarranted alteration: to do editorial violence to a text.) when a group's actions draw attention away from the speaker and to themselves. In that meaning, I am entirely within proper use of the word.

As for the remainder of your comments, I cannot tell to whom they are directed, Dr. Pipes or myself.

To: The Mechanical Eye

If you have attended any Republican sponsored events at all in your life, you know that they generally start with an invocation and the Pledge. This has been so for the 26 years I have been active in the Orange County GOP and it seems fairly standard around the nation. BTW, most city council meetings start this way -- so does your state legislature in Sacramento. Expecting people to stand when the pledge is done is standard -- even in the State Capitol where the Speaker of the Assembly instructs those present, Members and guests, to stand and remain standing until the invocation and Pledge are completed.

To: Army of One

Glad you approve (not that I was seeking that). As for “…everyone know(ing) your nuke initiative was a scam and that you had no intention of following through with process.” I guess you don’t know me all that well. I’ll be back with nuclear power year after year. I’m very persistent in the things I know to be so and do not lightly give up on policy positions I know to be correct and needed.

All the best,

Chuck DeVore
State Assemblyman, 70th District
www.ChuckDeVore.com

[Pipes got owned]

Actually, it is our 1st ammendment right to protest. People like Sean Hannity say people should be expelled for last years event. st.

But seriously OC Blogger dude got owned tonight. Hahahaha you should of heard him yell and seen him storm away.

[Bladerunner]

mechanical Eye--

I'm a Democrat. It's my flag too. Democrats wear lapel pins also. And its my pledge of Allegiance as well, just like its my constitution--and Chuck's for that matter. Democrats often start meetings with the pledge. It's a great unifier. Chuck's right on this--if you're not a citizen of the U.S. you should at least show respect by standing.

[Bladerunner]

mechanical Eye--

I'm a Democrat. It's my flag too. Democrats wear lapel pins also. And its my pledge of Allegiance as well, just like its my constitution--and Chuck's for that matter. Democrats often start meetings with the pledge. It's a great unifier. Chuck's right on this--if you're not a citizen of the U.S. you should at least show respect by standing.

Chuck,
Have you been smoking that industrial hemp dude? Serioulsy?! Your selective use of definitions is quite humorous.
I think you doth jumpeth the shark my friend. To selectivley define a walkout as an act of violence is a violent distortion and bizarre aleration of the use of the word violence.

Hey wait a tick?! I think you just committed an act of violence.

All the best,

:o)

[Wali]

Hey I am a member of MSU at UC Irvine and I participated in the walk out. I have to say that you need to understand how intolerant this guy is; he is quoted as saying that the interment of Japanese during World War II wasn't as bad as people make it out to seem. By this he is implying that doing the same to Muslims would be acceptable. Now if someone said something like that about your ethnic group or religious group would you stand by and do nothing. Also you need to realize that the Jewish student union does similar things during our events like, sing their national anthem, or run around in banana costumes. Also when we were leaving the room people from those clubs were following us with cameras, putting them in our faces, when I asked one of them "hey we are all UCI students why do you guys support people who hate us?" one of the cammera men yelled at me five times saying "Who hates you?". And for your information the majority of MSU students are born here and there were alot of non-muslims who walked out with us. Further more many muslims feel like why should they pledge their allegiance to a nation that treats us like 2nd class citizens, (like profiling at airports, and nonstop bashing in the media). For example all the muslim students had to pass through metal detectors to get in whereas other students wernt even checked. I'm just as American as everyone else, there was no need to even have one security guard there, we weren't going to blow anything up. Now if you really want to know how to defeat terrorism there is no need for more war like Daniel Pipes and other neo conservatives would argue, no need to spend billions of dollars, no need to kill soldiers or brown people, its called CHANGING FOREIGN POLICY!!!! This is what the Iraq study group found, the CIA has been saying, and all unbiased mideast experts say. But overall we feel like our walkout was a huge success because we stood up against racism and won. (PS it was more like 75% of the room)

[Jonathan Constantine]

Pipes got Owned,

The person who you speak of is not an OC Blogger nor represents any of the views on this blog.

[Jonathan Constantine]

Wali,

You disrupted a speech. Then you asked me a question. Did I not have the right to answer it? Then I added who hates you? You never answered me. One of your other cohorts shoved a camera in my face and started taunting me.

Daniel Pipes, as intelligent as he may appear and as much spinned this article may be towards the uneducated, the truth is that the MSU at UCI support the truth, and all those that oppose it are sadly pampered with words of hate and racism that are being being gently said by people like Daniel Pipes.

[Wali]

Jonathan don't even start to lie, the MSU guy did that to you because you were doing that to Omar. Apparently you got the message when you realized how rude it was. Also I didn't here you give me an answer, why do you invite people who most students on campus think is a racist. Also your groups have a tendency to distort what we say, so why should I give you an answer when you have a camera shoved in my face. What was the whole point of filming us anyways? If you also want to know something my name is not even Wali, Im using that name because im afraid of giving my real name, because I don't want to be reported to the FBI or something. Can you imagine how I feel, Im an American citizen like you and I am afraid to express my opinions because groups like yours want us to be silent.

[Jonathan Constantine]

-I wasn't even filming Omar until he turned around to speak with me.

-I've never protested one event of yours. I've just documented the radical ones. What about the time I was shoved out of Crystal Cove auditorium last spring?

-I did give you an answer to your question. I told you that I don't hate you.

-I already said that I don't care if you film what I do. It's in the video. I'm uploading and transcribing it.

[Jonathan Constantine]

Most groups think are racist? That's pretty much a logical fallacy and an appeal to a number. You should no better. You have to first define how he is a racist.

[X]

What I don't understand is why anyone would bring in a person like Pipes. He speaks only hate and the people who agree with him soak up the hate. College Republicans have become the College Islamophobes, unfortunately they have nothing better to do. I came into UCI a Republican, no lie. They don't see their own radicalism and hate monguering. By teaming up with Eric Brenner and Reut Cohen they form the axis of hate. I believe, all these people have good in them I just wish they could see how hatefilled their actions are and how disgusting their speakers are. Their counter is MSU brings in Amir Abdil Malik, however, he only calls for the end of Zionism, not an entire religion. Pipes and 3 x "terrorists" call for an end to Islam. Deep down inside they know that the MSU stands for good things.
When MSU members don't stand for the pledge it is because of the environment of the event tonight. I personally only pledge allegiance to God, because only he can sustain me and all goodness is from him.
If people feel the demonstration was uncalled for and wrong than let them know that they are the unpatriotic ones, not those who believe and excercise their first ammendment rights.

btw... Eric Brenner if you read this, just know if you are going to try and use scare tactics again make sure you a) know the law properly b) deliver the message with a little more bravado and c) understand that you can't scare anyone Faith over fear is stronger than any threat you will ever make.

[Karl Rove]

Wali nd the rest of the MSU,

The problem with your type of allegiance is that thwe idealology that you show allegiance to also includes blowing up women and children in marketplaces. What do you expect?

When the MSU gets on an airplane and flys to the middle east and stands in the middle of those same markeplaces protesting your bretheren extremists, then maybe the rest of the civilized world will become more sympathetic. But until you clean up your own house, nothing will change.

[Flowerszzz]

Dear MSU...you have the right to protest because of that flag that you refused to at least get up and respect. When a salute to the flag is happening, you at the very least and out of respect for this country, should stand and be silent. If you do not respect this nation and the rights afforded to you by it, then you should leave.

[killerjoe]

I guess that anyone that disagrees with msu is a hate mongering racisist. I must say that if I lived in a forign country, and the population was hate filled racisist, I believe I would think about moving to another country, or maybe go back to my counry that I love so much, because I know that my people are loving tolerant folks that never ever behead,give lashes to others in the name of religion.

[Jubal]

Pipes Got Owned:

Maybe you don't know, but we have rules in the comments section. One of which is no personal attacks.

If you are unable to discuss issues like an adult, or even a mature teenager, I suggest you find another forum. Maybe a MySpace page.

[peace4all]

I was there and a few Muslims did stand up. However, keep in mind that they were not there to participate in the program. They were there for one reason and one reason only and that is to exercise their right to freedom of speech. I agree 100% with mechanical eye on the loyalty-oath bullying. DeVore emphasized on "looking bad." What good does looking good do, when the inside—who a person really is—is rotten? That is why the world is being swarmed by corrupt politicians and leaders. That is what corrupt politicians do, they do the little things to earn people's respect, to make them selves look good and then act according to their own personal agenda. It is ridiculous, sad and disgusting all at the same time. I'm positive that many Muslims have no problem with standing up and saying the pledge of allegiance, however they did have a problem with the program and the people who were leading it. Why would they join the people who are there to spread their propaganda, hate and lies towards them? Would a black man stand up and say the pledge of allegiance with the leaders and followers of the KKK??? Would a Jew stand up and say the pledge of allegiance in a program lead by nazis??? The American Muslims did nothing wrong. They were abiding by their right to peacefully assemble, the right to believe in one God and their right to freedom of speech. These are all rights that are granted to them in the bill of rights. To take that away from them, to criticize them for it, that is un-American.

[Jubal]

why do you invite people who most students on campus think is a racist.

Wali, how can you possibly substantiate that statement? You accuse Jonathan of lying, and then you lay that whopper on us.

Also your groups have a tendency to distort what we say, so why should I give you an answer when you have a camera shoved in my face.

If you want to avoid having what you say distorted, speaking on video -- rather than having someone describe what you say -- is a good way to go.

Im an American citizen like you and I am afraid to express my opinions because groups like yours want us to be silent.

Oh please. Can you ease up on the victim act? You claim you're afraid to express your opinion, yet you stand up and participate in a walk-out in front of media cameras?

As for not standing for the Pledge of Allegiance, you and your fellow students are of course free to do that. But don't expect not to be criticized for it. If you think free speech means being able to say what you want but nobody is allowed to criticize what you say, you need to grow up.

[Jubal]

Why would they join the people who are there to spread their propaganda, hate and lies towards them? Would a black man stand up and say the pledge of allegiance with the leaders and followers of the KKK??? Would a Jew stand up and say the pledge of allegiance in a program lead by nazis???

Can you conjure any more ridiculous analogies?

I've read a number of claims by some commenters about "propaganda, hate and lies" being directed at them, but I have yet to see them cite an example.

And get over this "loyalty-oath bullying" line. You are certainly a fragile bunch. If you or Mechanical Eye feel someone wearing a flag lapel pin or standing for the Pledge of Allegiance is an attempt to make you feel unpatriotic, that only says something about you.

[d'Anconia]

Are we really discussing whether or not it is acceptable NOT to stand up for the pledge of allegiance??

I don't know much about this issue and so far it seems like the back and forth discussion has been civil, BUT for MSU's own sake they should try and research a little bit more about what it MEANS to be an American versus spouting ridiculous diatribe about their "freedom of speech".

Jubal couldn't have said it better. If you think free speech means being able to say what you want but nobody is allowed to criticize it, you need to grow up.

[Chuck DeVore]

A suggestion for those MSU members and their supporters who commented to this post or are reading it:

For those of you who were born in America or who moved here at a young age, please ask your parents the following questions:

1) Why did your parents move to America?
2) How free were your parents in their country of origin?
3) Were your parents free to convert to another religion if they wanted to in their country of origin without fear of being killed?
4) Were religions other than Islam even allowed for the citizens of their country of origin (as in Saudi Arabia, et al)?
5) Did corruption in their country of origin limit their ability to earn a living?
6) If your parents knew then what they know now about America, would they have still moved here with their families?

I really suggest you discuss these points with your parents. Perhaps afterwards your attitude towards America will change. But, perhaps not. If not, there’s always another place you may want to live – no one is forcing you to remain in America.

All the best,

Chuck DeVore
State Assemblyman, 70th District
www.ChuckDeVore.com

Well said Assemblyman. Keep up the good work. I see you as a man standing holding fast to his beliefs, holding our flag and the honor of OUR country fast.

Thank you.

[pipes got owned]

Stop focusing on standing for the pledge, look at the reality of the situation. Pipes is a racist and a psudo/ joke scholar. Don't you think more people would stand for the pledge if the flag represented what the pledge says or if the government wasn't so corrupt? I love this country because I have my rights, however, this countries GOVERNMENT is murderous and treachorous.

But seriously, Constantine you were up in Omar's face. I know you are sad because you got embarrased last night. Ooh and choose words a little bit wiser, you told someone the MSU prayer last night was evil.

[Chuck DeVore]

To: pipes got owned "Pipes is a racist and a psudo/joke scholar"?

What, then, is your definition of a scholar? Someone with whom you agree?

Pipes received his A.B. (1971) and Ph.D. (1978) from Harvard University, both in history. He spent six years studying abroad, including three years in Egypt. He speaks French, and reads Arabic and German. He has taught at the University of Chicago, Harvard University, the U.S. Naval War College, and Pepperdine University. He has also written twelve books, four of which deal with Islam.

Sounds like a scholar to me.

Your arguments to the contrary weaken your point significantly. You are rapidly marginalizing yourself.

All the best,

Chuck DeVore
State Assemblyman, 70th District
www.ChuckDeVore.com

[peace4all]

I was there and a few Muslims did stand up. However, keep in mind that they were not there to participate in the program. They were there for one reason and one reason only and that is to exercise their right to freedom of speech. I agree 100% with mechanical eye on the loyalty-oath bullying. DeVore emphasized on "looking bad." What good does looking good do, when the inside, who a person really is, is rotten? That is why the world is being swarmed by corrupt politicians and leaders. That is what corrupt politicians do, they do the little things to earn people's respect, to make them selves look good and then act according to their own personal agenda. It is ridiculous, sad and disgusting all at the same time. I'm positive that many Muslims have no problem with standing up and saying the pledge of allegiance, however they did have a problem with the program and the people who were leading it. Why would they join the people who are there to spread hate and lies towards them? Would a black man stand up and say the pledge of allegiance with the leaders and followers of the KKK??? The American Muslims did nothing wrong. They were abiding by their right to peacefully assemble, the right to believe in one God and their right to freedom of speech. These are all rights that are granted to them in the bill of rights. To take that away from them, to criticize them for it, that is un-American.

[Varangy]

@Wali

You wrote:

Hey I am a member of MSU at UC Irvine and I participated in the walk out. I have to say that you need to understand how intolerant this guy is; he is quoted as saying that the interment of Japanese during World War II wasn't as bad as people make it out to seem.

That is certainly debatable, is it not? I do not know if the internment of the Japanese (and Italians BTW) during WW II was as bad, was worse, or wasn't as bad as people make it out to be.

By this he is implying that doing the same to Muslims would be acceptable. Now if someone said something like that about your ethnic group or religious group would you stand by and do nothing.

This is pure, inaccurate supposition. Please quote Dr. Pipes as to his opinion on the possible internment of Muslims in the USA.

Also you need to realize that the Jewish student union does similar things during our events like, sing their national anthem, or run around in banana costumes.

This is clearly rude behavior --- but two wrongs do not make a right, do they?

Further more many muslims feel like why should they pledge their allegiance to a nation that treats us like 2nd class citizens, (like profiling at airports, and nonstop bashing in the media).

How should we conduct security checks? It is fact that most terrorists are Muslim --- this is not to say that all Muslim are terrorists.

Muslims are more likely treated as second class citizens in Muslim countries -- don't believe me? Let's look at the civil strife in Iraq between the Shia, Sunni and Shiite.

For example all the muslim students had to pass through metal detectors to get in whereas other students wernt even checked. I'm just as American as everyone else, there was no need to even have one security guard there, we weren't going to blow anything up. Now if you really want to know how to defeat terrorism there is no need for more war like Daniel Pipes and other neo conservatives would argue, no need to spend billions of dollars, no need to kill soldiers or brown people, its called CHANGING FOREIGN POLICY!!!!

How would you change foreign policy? (I am serious BTW) What would you do if you were POTUS?

BTW did you support Clinton's bombing of Serbia and Kosovo in the 90s?

[Flowerszzz]

It does not matter if they were there to participate or not.....the point is that without that flag they would NOT be allowed to protest or choose to participate. We are expected to "honor" your right to protest....in like we expect YOU to honor the flag that allows you this freedom. It is very disrespectful to not participate in the pledge period. You don't have to say the words BUT you do have to stand....if you want to be respected act respectfully.

[Silence Dogood]

"I came into UCI a Republican, no lie."

X -

I seriously doubt you. You are either lying or the MSU and campus Left have done an amazing job "re-educating" you. If you are currently a fourth-year senior at UCI, then you must have begun your college tenure in the Fall of 2003. The War in Iraq began on March 20, 2003 and, of course, the War in Afghanistan started long before that. Could you please explain to me what aspect of the Bush foreign policy has changed since Fall 2003 (since you supposedly went to UCI a Republican)? It seems to me it hasn't. Muslim extremists were and still are the target of American military attacks. If you did in fact go to UCI a Republican, how did you reconcile your membership in the Republican Party with what you assert you believe?

So, I think you're a liar or, possibly, a super senior going on a fifth, sixth, seventh, or eighth year of college (at the taxpayers' expense).

To gain citizenship in this country, foreigners are required to recite an oath of allegiance. We expect that of our citizens. You said you "only pledge allegiance to God." Now that, to me, seems to validate a few of your opponents' points - that Islam and America are incompatible. Based just on your statement, I'm not sure at this point if I don't agree with you.

[Jonathan Constantine]

Pipes got owned,

I am not embarrassed about last night. You guys never prayed. Nor did I intend to disrupt it.

All you did was have some guy talk about how terrible Jewish people are. That's pretty embarrassing.

As for my friend. You and your thugs surrounded him and were using very foul and intimidating language. You had no intention of engaging in serious debate. That's funny for a so called "pious bunch."

[Wali]

Hey its me again and I would like to say that the MSU realizes that there are alot of problems in Muslim countries too. We also wish that could change too, but unlike our Jewish counterparts we can admit that our people have problems. Hillel and AFI get offended when we criticize the country of Israel and the political movement of Zionism, as though we are attacking there religion. The president of Hillel actually wrote in our newspaper that Attacking Zionism is akin to attacking Judaism. First and foremost Zionism is a POLITICAL movement that began in the 19th century or somewhere around that time, and Judaism is a 3000 year old religion. Basically these groups know that they can't beat us in a debate over Zionism so they call us anti-semitic and terrorists to delegitimize us. That is why the sign in the picture is saying "we will not be silenced", and why we wore masking tape over our mouths. David Horrowitz even wrote in our paper that MSU at UC Irvine supports Hamas! As though we are actively funding them or something.Furthermore as I have mentioned what we criticize and what they criticize are on completly different levels. We criticize Zionism and the ocupation in Palestine, they criticize our religion- like when they brought three former ex terrorists to campus who only talked about how Islam is an evil religion and how they had converted to Christianity. They have a right to say whatever they want, but clearly there is a difference in what they do and we do. On the topic of our speakers, none have ever said anything negative about any Jewish or Christian prophets (becasue we beleive in them too). Unlike their speakers who attack our prophet on a regular basis. We have even brought holocaust survivors and rabbis on campus to speak, which is more than Hillel has ever done. Also there were several Jewish students who walked out with us, one of whom gave our closing speech. Also alot of the people commenting on this page don't even go to UC Irvine and judge us based on biased reports in the media. Most politically active people on campus side with MSU and we are not hated by our fellow students like people want you to believe. And not to sound arrogant but Hillel and AFI dont like us becasue we are the most organized, and outspken group on campus, and because we are basically "winning the PR war on campus" if anyone can win such a thing. Furthermore now that you are armed with the truth, that we are not Anti-semetic and that we dont support terrorism I hope you understand that the next time someone calls the MSU at UC Irvine anti-semetic you will know the truth (because you will never hear our side on the news) and that we refuse to remain silent. PS standing up for what you believe in is more American than standing up for the pledge of allegiance.

[Silence Dogood]

Wali -

I think you know very little about what it is to be an American. And your platitudinous shots are less accurate the farther you run away. What a weak rebuttal.

[Flowerszzz]

Wali - you are wrong. You would not be able to stand up for what you believe in were it not for that flag. I just love kids that think they know it all. Wali. take an AMERICAN history course to learn what it means to be an American and why we pledge allegence to the flag. You dont have to salute the flag at your own meetings of course but when there is a flag salute going on you should...you disrespect your country, all those that have fought and died for your freedoms...so that you are allowed to be a know it all twit, with no life experience, that is able to protest.

[Tova]

Untrue, MSU. Isn't your group the one who has repeatedly sponsored Amir Abdel Malik Ali?

How on earth could *that* be considered "moderate"?

[Tova]

"... unlike our Jewish counterparts we can admit that our people have problems." - Wali

Sounds pretty "moderate" to me.

[killerjoe]

Wali just said it all "We're winning the pr war". I did'nt know there was a war on campus. I don't hear any Jews or Christians talk about a war on campus. How screwed up are these people.

Wali, you should be ashamed.

[killerjoe]

Wali just said it all "We're winning the pr war". I did'nt know there was a war on campus. I don't hear any Jews or Christians talk about a war on campus. How screwed up are these people.

Wali, you should be ashamed.

[Wali]

These last comments somewhat prove my point, of how everything we say is misconstrued. Of cource there is no PR war on campus and Im not advocating one either. I was saying that the MSU promotes its causes better than other groups. Furthermore it is true that some muslim countries are oppressive, we know this and are not proud of it. But we admit this and zionist groups cannot admit that what Israel is doing is wrong as well. Also you are doing exactly what I said in my last article, you are painting me as a radical and an anti-semitic to dismiss me.

[Wali]

Also for your information I stood up during the pledge of allegiance, and I know what it means to be an American I was born here, lived here all my life, I love what this country was built on, the American people are tolerant and kind people. I dont know it all and neither do you Flowerrzz. For your information I have taken a advanced placement courses on American history and got an A in that class and passed the AP test with a 4. So dont tell me I dont know what it means to Be american. THis is why we muslim-AMERICANS are so alienated because of people like who who will never accept us becasue we hold veiws opposite your own.

[killerjoe]

I am not painting you as anything. I am simply stateing that you seem radical, and anti-semitic to me, and I would never dismiss you, or any of your ilk.

[Silence Dogood]

Wali -

Ha! You're honestly citing a grade in a class no doubt taught by a left-wing tenured radical? The facts you regurgitated to receive that grade mean nothing if not applied toward respect for the American political culture. And, like it or not, the Pledge of Allegiance is a part of that culture.

Your associates are the ones digging you into a hole. One of them defiantly stated he/she "only [pledged] allegiance to God." Do you disagree with him/her?

[Wali]

Thanks Killer Joe I appreciate that you are not trying to paint me as anything, and I think you have missed the point of what I was trying to say. That I and MSU are not radical, and we are not anti-semitic. I don't know how many times I can say it, but it is the truth. Just because we are pro-Palestinian doesn't mean we hate Jews, that is like saying that someone who is pro-Israeli hates Muslims. It really makes me sad when people say that we are radicals and anti-semetic because they are using those terms to deligitimize us. One clear example of what I am trying to say was during spring quarter of this year when during one of our events a student who didn't like what we had to say had purposely dressed up in traditional Muslim clothing, his face was covered and he was holding a sign that read "death to the infidels". He was doing this to make us look bad and associate our message and us as terrorists. This really struck a nerve with us, because he was promoting the stereotype of Muslims that we have been trying to dispel. But to us Daniel Pipes is really racist, I beleive in the speech he gave yesterday he said that we should restrict the right of muslim americans to vote. Now if that is not racism what is? With that being said all this arguing on this post is not going to solve the problems in the middleast and neither will if end terrorism or the occupation, so with those words I end becasue I need to go back to studying.

[Chuck DeVore]

Wait a minute there, Wali, I actually listened to Dr. Pipes speech. So, unless you were part of the one or two people from the MSU who stayed to listen, you could not possibly know that, as you wrote, "...in the speech he gave yesterday he said that we should restrict the right of muslim americans to vote." This is patently false. Untrue. A lie. Dr. Pipes never said such a thing last night – not even close to it.

In fact, it calls to mind that dissimulation is an approved tactic in the Islamic tradition to advance the cause (see: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dissimulation).

In addition, it is a fact that the Muslim Student Union at UCI has had speakers on campus who have called for the destruction of Israel, a member state in the United Nations, and who have said hateful things against Jewish people, not just "Zionists" as you claim.

Lastly, I was unaware that Muslims are part of a "race." Someone who is biased against Muslims would therefore be a bigot, not necessarily a racist – unless you yourself ascribe to one of the traditional Islamic religious practices that believes only Arabs can be first class Muslims (true members of The Ummah) while others cannot be – a truly racist doctrine if ever there was one.

All the best,

Chuck DeVore
State Assemblyman, 70th District
www.ChuckDeVore.com

[Chuck DeVore]

Regarding Arab superiority within Islam, is it not true that there is a special place for the Arabs within Islam?

The Quran is written in Arabic.

The Quran was delivered to, given to, revealed to, the Arabs, the best of people.

That best of men, Mohammad, was an Arab, as were the Companions.

The Quran itself ought not be seriously read in any language other than 7th Century Arabic, even if one speaks English or is from India or Pakistan and has little working knowledge of Arabic.

While in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are there not signs that say: "Muslim" and "Non-Muslim" as well as within The Ummah, signs further demarking, "Arab" (1st class) from "non-Arab" (2nd class).

Is this not so? Is this not a form of racism? Of apartheid of both religion and race?

All the best,

Chuck DeVore
State Assemblyman, 70th District
www.ChuckDeVore.com

[fouse, gary c]

Daniel Pipes Talk at UC Irvine

Since I teach part-time at UC Irvine and have spoken out many times on the activities of the Muslim Student Union there, I was planning to attend Dr Pipes talk to observe and report on the reaction from the MSU. Unfortunately, I was unable to attend due to family emergency.

Today, however, I was interviewed by the David Project regarding the problems at UCI, an interview that was arranged by Reut Cohen, a recent UCI grad and former leader of Anteaters for Israel at the UCI campus. I was able to get a short briefing from her regarding last night's events. What I will say here is second-hand, and surely will be reported on Reut's blog as well (I have a link on my site). According to Reut, there were no serious disturbances. MSU members did show up in the hall, many with their mouths taped up and bearing posters. When Mr Pipes began his talk, they walked out.

What is interesting is that as the event opened, there was a pledge of allegiance. Most of the Muslims in the audience remained seated and refused to participate. Now, to be fair, I should state that someone who is not a US citizen should not be expected to recite the pledge of allegiance, though it would be a sign of respect to at least stand, as one would do when any country's national anthym is being played. However, from my own observations at last week's speech by Yvonne Ridley at UCI, most of the Muslim attendees at that event spoke native English. It is my belief that most of these young people are indeed American citizens. If that is the case, their refusal to recite the pledge of allegiance speaks volumes.

Consider on the other hand that Ms Cohen has recently enlisted in the US Army, and will begin serving her country in January. Quite a contrast, don't you think?

gary fouse
fousesquawk

[Flowerszzz]

Wali-I am glad you at least stood up for the pledge. You can take all the classes in the world, with honors BUT it will not give you any street smarts nor common sense. Only life's experiences can give you that. Extremists, on any issue, never get anywhere - at least in this country. What I have learned in my life's experience is that you have to stand up for what you believe in, and be willing to hear what others believe, find a common or middle ground and start from there. If you TRULY want to educate people on your beliefs...that is what you should be doing. ALL great leaders of this country have done so.

[Wali]

To the congressman I am not sure of what he said, I wasn't there but that is what I heard from hearsay. But If he didn't say it then I'm sorry about misquoting him. Congressman you seem to have a one sided view of this issue I would like to invite you and anyone else to come to one of our events so you could decide for yourself on this matter. If you accept I will talk to the higher ups in the club and get something organized, and maybe even have you speak if you would like to. But I have a feeling that you will not take me up on this offer because you will surely be criticized by people who dislike us, and those groups will do everything to get you from attending and criticize you relentlessly if you do. But I ask because we are also your constituents and in the sake of fairness you should here both sides of something before you make a decision.

[Wali]

Also congress man here is a story that will help you dispel some myths about Arabs being superior:

A man once visited the Prophet's mosque in Madinah. There he saw a group of people sitting and discussing their faith together. Among them were Salman (who came from Persia), Suhayb who grew up in the Eastern Roman empire and was regarded as a Greek, and Bilal who was an African. The man then said:

"If the (Madinan) tribes of Aws and Khazraj support Muhammad, they are his people (that is, Arabs like him). But what are these people doing here?"

The Prophet became very angry when this was reported to him. Straightaway, he went to the mosque and summoned people to a Salat. He then addressed them saying:

"O people, know that the Lord and Sustainer is One. Your ancestor is one, your faith is one. The Arabism of anyone of you is not from your mother or father. It is no more than a tongue (language). Whoever speaks Arabic is an Arab." (As quoted in Islam The Natural Way by Abdul Wahid Hamid p. 125)

[Wali]

Also this is a quote from the prophet Muhammed's (pbuh) last sermon which we Muslims call the seal of the prophets:

O people, Remember that your Lord is One. An Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a black has no superiority over white, nor a white has any superiority over black, except by piety and good action (Taqwa). Indeed the best among you is the one with the best character (Taqwa). Listen to me. Did I convey this to you properly? People responded, Yes. O messenger of God, The Prophet then said, then each one of you who is there must convey this to everyone not present. (Excerpt from the Prophet's Last Sermon as in Baihiqi)

So I believe this has clarified that issue.

[Chuck DeVore]

Wali, you just wrote:

“To the congressman I am not sure of what he said, I wasn't there…” And yet earlier you wrote: “(Dr. Pipes) said that we should restrict the right of muslim americans to vote.”

Clearly, you did not know what Dr. Pipes said since you left the room where he spoke, yet you called him a racist and claimed he said something that he did not. This gives you a major credibility problem.

Secondly, thank you for the invitation to an MSU meeting, but, as you may remember, I attended one of your meetings in May. At that meeting I was asked to cease recording the meeting with my video camera. I refused, properly believing that request to be a violation of my First Amendment rights to practice journalism and gather news, not to mention an infringement on my responsibilities as an elected state representative to observe what is happening on a campus that the State of California heavily subsidizes with taxpayer dollars. Before the event, I noted a MSU student leader taking pictures of me, my wife, and my underage daughters at the UCI coffee shop with a cell phone camera. Later, MSU members carefully tracked my family outside the speakers’ venue while I was inside recording. While inside the Muslim Student Union event I noticed gender apartheid, with all Muslim men seated to the left and all Muslim women to the right – and this for a secular topic on a secular campus.

As for your quotes from the Koran regarding the treatment of non-Arabs, I note that you assiduously avoided my specific mention of how non-Arabs and non-Muslims are actually treated in the birthplace of Islam, Saudi Arabia. As I wrote earlier, is it not so that in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia there are signs that say: "Muslim" and "Non-Muslim" as well as within The Ummah, signs further demarking, "Arab" (1st class) from "non-Arab" (2nd class).

Is this not a form of racism? Of apartheid of both religion and race?

I spent a semester studying Islamic political thought in Cairo, Egypt. I also took two years of Arabic in college. My knowledge of this issue is stronger than the average American’s. I may attend another MSU meeting – but it will be at a time of my own choosing. Thank you, however, for the open invitation. “Ma’a saalama.”

All the best,

Chuck DeVore
State Assemblyman, 70th District
www.ChuckDeVore.com

[Lou]

Whatever happened to un-biased journalism?